Narrowed it down but need help choosing a hone

Okay. So I think I've narrowed it down to what I need/can afford. Can people provide advice? I am considering the following areas: ease of use, quality, and versatility. I'm pretty sure all the set ups I will list can cover these in my price range (<$200, preferably closer to $100).

I want something I can use now to hold edges from honemeisters/touch up when I ruin them, and something I can eventually begin working chips, and then graduate to ebay specials.

Honing Set Up: (if you could have only one set up...?)
Norton Kit: 220/1k, 4k/8k, lapstone Amazon.com: Norton Waterstone Starter Kit: 220/1000 grit stone, 4000/8000 grit stone, SiC flattening stone: Home Improvement
Natural Kit: BBW and Coticule, both 6x2, slurry stone
Best Sharpening Stones
DMT: Plane old DMT8EE (Someone says it cuts as fast or faster than a Norton 4k, yet leaves a sharper edge than a Norton 8k), and later buy something with a rougher grit for bad chips and stuff

Finishing Stone: (if you could have only one...?)
Escher, either 4x1 or 5x1
Thurigan, 7.5x1.5
Carborundum/Barber hone
Coticule

I think I'm leaning toward either the Norton with a finishing stone cus of all the info out there and how versatile it is, but I'm really attracted to the Coticule/BBW set because I wouldn't need a finishing stone (I could just use the coticule without slurry) Can someone look at that website and let me know if those are decent quality natural stones, or are they all from the same quarry anyways?

The Norton is the easiest stone to learn with, I would suggest it and a pasted(cro2) strop.

Have you looked at the Naniwa stuff at straightrazordesigns?

I saw them in person at the Mid-MO get together and was impressed.

I haven't priced the Norton's in a long time, so can't compare the cost between them, and even though you still need to buy a DMT to lap them, I think it would be worth it.

Edit: I saw someone go from the 1000 to the 10 or 12k with no problems FWIW, so you might save a few bucks there.

For pricing: the norton and natural sets are $120 +/- $10 each, the Dmt is $80ish?
Last I checked Naniwa's weren't that cheap.

Edit: So it is possible to use just the DMT8EE?
Edit (again): I like the naturals because they are their own finisher, but the DMT and Nortons are bigger. I think right now I think I'm leaning towards the Norton with a barber hone or a Thurigan. However, if the DMT is an option, I really like the idea of a DMT8EE with a Thurigan- the DMT rarely needs lapping especially for the light use I'm looking at, will finish up to 8k, and then the Thurigan will put a nice smooth natural finish on it. I think. Is that right?

IMHO, the Nortons are more straight (:p) forward in use/technique. Do you really need the 240/1000? Unless you're restoring very dull blades....

I've also done just fine finishing on chrom ox and you can always throw a Chinese between the 8K and the chrom ox. Just my $.02

Jordan

I don't really need the 240/1k right now, but buying the set is cheaper than buying the 4k/8k and either the lap stone or 240/1k separately. Plus I could sharpen knives on it for now. I just read somewhere that a Thuringen can actually be used as a hone from 5k onward... with slurry, with water, then dry... is this true?

If I were you, for roughly $200, here is what I would do.

DMT D8E, 1200 grit, this is your bevel setter.
Norton 4k/8k for sharpening and polishing
Chinese 12k for finishing

Then, I would make yourself an inexpensive balsa wood paddle strop for <$10, and buy some chromium oxide powder from Chris L.

This is a great setup that should cost a bit under $200 and will take you from bevel setting even ebay specials through a nice final edge.

If you can afford a bit more, I would look at substituting the naniwa 12k for the chinese 12k. This would put you up a bit over $200.

That sounds good... but its up around $200. Which I am willing to do, but I'd prefer to be closer to $100. Also, I have a slight aversion to the Chinese because in another post you were the second to say its less comfortable than a coticule or thuringen.

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Originally Posted by khaos

That sounds good... but its up around $200. Which I am willing to do, but I'd prefer to be closer to $100. Also, I have a slight aversion to the Chinese because in another post you were the second to say its less comfortable than a coticule or thuringen.

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Yes, it's not as smooth, IMHO, as those two. But as I just mentioned in the other post, smoothness isn't the whole story. I don't shave off the coticule because I don't like it. I prefer a sharper edge. I do like the shaves off the chinese 12k better than the coticule, but as my other post in the other thread indicates, I also think there is better out there than the chinese 12k. It's a tough call then, because then you get into the value, and when you're on a budget, the chinese 12k really starts to shine.

In any even, all of these stones, IMO, benefit from a pasted strop, and the pasted balsa paddle strop is easy and inexpensive to make. A must have if you ask me.

Alright. So I will be making a CrOx balsa strop. The overwhelming majority of people have suggested the Norton 4k/8k, so I'll probably just get that system, and find a finisher, and have my strop.

Well, one alternative is a woodcraft DMT set-

Buy Woodcraft DMT 80th Anniversary Diamond Stone Boxed Set, Woodcraft DMT 80th

That will cover pretty much all repair situations. For a finisher you could get a sypderco UF for 50$, and if you felt the need, a spyderco fine for another 35 would pretty much have you set (cheaperthandirt.com). Going from the DMTs to the spydercos works well. You don't really need the spyderco fine, it just makes things quicker.

The only problem with this set up is you'd need to lap one side of each of the spydercos, which is a real bear. The best way to do this would be to buy a glass plate or a hard tile and some SIC grit, but that would only be about 10$ or so. I wouldn't recommend using these DMTs to try to lap the spydercos.

Actually, another problem is you'll have to improvise your own honing routine, there isn't alot of info out there about these like there is about the norton, but you should be able to get it down with some trial and error. I just go 1200, 8000, then pyramid the 8000, fine, and UF.

On the plus side, you don't have to worry about water or soaking your hones at all with this set up, which makes it really convenient and much less of a production when you want to hone.

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Originally Posted by Pete_S

Well, one alternative is a woodcraft DMT set-

Buy Woodcraft DMT 80th Anniversary Diamond Stone Boxed Set, Woodcraft DMT 80th

That will cover pretty much all repair situations. For a finisher you could get a sypderco UF for 50$, and if you felt the need, a spyderco fine for another 35 would pretty much have you set (cheaperthandirt.com). Going from the DMTs to the spydercos works well. You don't really need the spyderco fine, it just makes things quicker.

The only problem with this set up is you'd need to lap one side of each of the spydercos, which is a real bear. The best way to do this would be to buy a glass plate or a hard tile and some SIC grit, but that would only be about 10$ or so. I wouldn't recommend using these DMTs to try to lap the spydercos.

Actually, another problem is you'll have to improvise your own honing routine, there isn't alot of info out there about these like there is about the norton, but you should be able to get it down with some trial and error. I just go 1200, 8000, then pyramid the 8000, fine, and UF.

On the plus side, you don't have to worry about water or soaking your hones at all with this set up, which makes it really convenient and much less of a production when you want to hone.

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Hey Pete do you get the SIC online or is there somewhere local?

So I think I ruled out the naturals. I'm down to this decision:
Norton 240/1k, 4k/8k set ($120)
DMT 600, 1200 (both with swarf holes), 8k (flat) ($60)

The DMT's are clearly half the price, but they are 6x2 compared to Norton's 8x something (2? 3?). Also, I read somewhere that the DMT's are less forgiving/harder to learn on, whereas the Norton's cut nice and slow and theres a lot of info out there. In both cases I'm doing the CrOx balsa strop deal, and will probably get a finishing hone, now or later.
I've read all the stuff about needing to break in the DMT's and I have a few knives I need to sharpen which I will be doing on whatever hone I get, so that would break them in.

My main question is, is the increase in surface area and newb-friendliness worth the $60? Or rather, is the aggressiveness of the DMT highly unrecommendable? (On a side note, because the DMT cuts faster, does the size difference matter that much?)

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Originally Posted by khaos

So I think I ruled out the naturals. I'm down to this decision:
Norton 240/1k, 4k/8k set ($120)
DMT 600, 1200 (both with swarf holes), 8k (flat) ($60)

The DMT's are clearly half the price, but they are 6x2 compared to Norton's 8x something (2? 3?). Also, I read somewhere that the DMT's are less forgiving/harder to learn on, whereas the Norton's cut nice and slow and theres a lot of info out there. In both cases I'm doing the CrOx balsa strop deal, and will probably get a finishing hone, now or later.
I've read all the stuff about needing to break in the DMT's and I have a few knives I need to sharpen which I will be doing on whatever hone I get, so that would break them in.

My main question is, is the increase in surface area and newb-friendliness worth the $60? Or rather, is the aggressiveness of the DMT highly unrecommendable? (On a side note, because the DMT cuts faster, does the size difference matter that much?)

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Before you buy those DMT's with swarf holes, I'd search for a little more info on them. I think someone had said they aren't good for honing razors. I don't remember why, though. I could very well be mistaken, but I'd rather you be sure before buying them.

Also, my understanding of the D8EE is that it doesn't finish as fine as the norton 8k does, even though it's supposedly 8k also. IIRC it's a bit harsher? In any event, I'm not sure you'd want to shave straight off it, and I'm not sure if the crox would help it enough for a comfortable shave? On the other hand, you could shave straight off the norton 8k if you wanted to. And the crox is only helping there.

Pete, who recommended it, and Sticky both use swarf holed ones without trouble. However they are not newbies like me, so... anyone with experience please chime in. At $60 I would definitely also get a good finisher. With the Nortons I would still get one, but wait a while. Thanks for you help everyone

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Before you buy those DMT's with swarf holes, I'd search for a little more info on them. I think someone had said they aren't good for honing razors. I don't remember why, though. I could very well be mistaken, but I'd rather you be sure before buying them.

Also, my understanding of the D8EE is that it doesn't finish as fine as the norton 8k does, even though it's supposedly 8k also. IIRC it's a bit harsher? In any event, I'm not sure you'd want to shave straight off it, and I'm not sure if the crox would help it enough for a comfortable shave? On the other hand, you could shave straight off the norton 8k if you wanted to. And the crox is only helping there.

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i have this set. The dmt 600 gets the most work and i usually do a few laps on the dmt 1200 also, just because i can.

I have experimented a bit with the dmt 8k.... It may just be in my head, but i dont like the edge. Even after naniwa 12k and CrO.

You also get zero feedback...

Just an update... looks like I will be getting a Swaty as a finisher for now.

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Originally Posted by khaos

Just an update... looks like I will be getting a Swaty as a finisher for now.

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Did you wind up getting the DMT? I was actually following this thread and opted for the DMT on account of price -- placed my order last night. I have a three-line Swaty already.

It's hard to pass up $60. I'm a little nervous about those polka-dots but it seems like there are a few SRP members using the same set. I have an auction blade set aside strictly for learning. Razors, beware!

I have not decided yet. I have a birthday coming up, so I think I'm going to ask for the Norton Set. But I might just get the DMT set... I don't know... :( Anyway, I won't be buying a set this pay cycle... I just found 2 NOS razors and that Swaty that I couldn't just leave in the store...

If you endeavor to keep your edge sharp rather than letting it get dull and resharpening it, your choices are a lot easier to make. A coticule will keep your razor sharp. I keep one in my medicine chest and give the razor a few licks every week in order to keep it sharp. I then strop and that's that. If I get lazy, I'll take it to my belgian blue and then coticule and then natural leather.

The D8EE is an aggressive cutter and you'll see shiny metal on the edge after 3 swipes. Unfortunately, it needs a bit of refining after that with a coticule or esher as the diamonds just don't leave an edge face-friendly.

Howard

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Originally Posted by pjrage

Hey Pete do you get the SIC online or is there somewhere local?

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I got it from here:

Lapidary Equipment, Supplies, Lapidary Tools From Kingsley North

I bought the "abrasive grit kit". It gives pretty good range of grits and also throws in some ceruim oxide to play around with. If you wanted they would prolly substitute another grit for one in the kit.

Silicon Carbide - Grit - Kingsley North

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

i have this set. The dmt 600 gets the most work and i usually do a few laps on the dmt 1200 also, just because i can.

I have experimented a bit with the dmt 8k.... It may just be in my head, but i dont like the edge. Even after naniwa 12k and CrO.

You also get zero feedback...

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Yeah, the edge off the dmt 8k seems pretty harsh to me also, but I'm usually able to get it fairly smoothed out (at least under a loupe) with lapped spydercos. The scratches it leaves seem pretty deep and stubborn. Doing what Maestro Livi does in his video-kind of lightly circling the razor a few time before honing back and forth-seems to help some. I guess its kind of like cross hatching when you polish metal.